Increased coyote numbers and fox hunting practices

[Pa Goosehntr]

If there is a pear tree on your property or farm you hunt, watch the activity when the pears start to drop....coyotes will find them...

[uncle buck]

Good info there Hern I like that... that is good wisdom there..

[Hern]

Buckwheat asks-
If the PGC has not done an in depth study on coyotes in PA. Were did they get there information?
PGC did a radio collar Coyote study in the '90's. I had the study, but lost it on my ole computer. PGC Biologist Arnie Hayden (a great guy) spearheaded this study- trapping, collaring and recording patterns. Dick Hildagrass, Sullivan County, was the trapper employed to capture Coyotes for the study. Years later, Dick was also employed to capture Bobcat for the PGC Bobcat Study.
Am sure you can get a copy of this Coyote study from PGC Furbearer Biologists.
This study and possibly along with recent studies from neighboring states, field reports from WCO's in all 67 counties enables Pennsylvanians an open hunting season and a regulated trapping season set by the PGC.  Like it or Lump it, that's what we have now.

I talked with Arnie several times about Coyote. One thing he said, if an Alfa Male or Alfa Female is killed, either Alfa will be replaced within 48-72 hours. Arnie mentioned, in natures way, there is always another lurking to be an Alfa.

[Hern]

Thanks Uncle Buck.

You can create a good bait station by digging a deep hole or three at a good location. Keep adding bait as needed. It's not easy to maintain bait stations, it takes lots of bait throughout the year and lots of time. But in the end, it will have critters in the area and hopefully they will be around when you hunt/call. Trapping these bait stations is different then hunting/calling. I don't want to set at or near but in a travel line some distance away, that's my best bet.

Several years ago on our property, I dug two deep holes against this stump and filled with table scraps, Groundhogs, Squirrels (from the bird feeders), trapping carcasses, Chipmunks, Deer scraps, Dog Food or anything I don't want to eat. I got pictures and videos of Reds, Coyotes, Coons and Greys working these holes. Nowadays, 'the bait' is gone within one or two nights.

I haven't had Greys around the house for a few years and was happy to see their return this year...


Am hoping the one on the left is a pregnant Female...
 

[QUATTRO]

Good info there Hern I like that... that is good wisdom there..

Definitely good stuff..

Hern, your groundhog hole and fox account reminded me of one farm I have that has a small feeder stream out back with numerous mink dens..and just as you say, there in the snow you can see where a fox has stuck his snout in each and every one of those holes..very small but active farm predator wise...that stream bank/mink den situation is a very similar situation as you shared...problem is farmer isn't keen on traps as he has several dogs...

[uncle buck]

What I have noticed is that when I use cable restraints along the shorter end of stubble corn. I actually end up with a critter in all let say 6 restraints I have along the side of the field.. This is between the field and let say the briars and the growth.  Once we get snow the predators start to travel further out away from the sides of the vegetation... They miss all of the restraints... The snow melts then they start to travel again right on the edge of the fields again and our catches start again. So snow makes them travel a few feet farther out into the field.. They come along the edge but not on the true edge..  As of yet our coyotes catches with restraints have been in wooded areas that enter the fields and not along the fields... Just say the corners with a trail.. We set it right where the trail begins or right where they cross through a tree line to another field.. Nothing what so ever along the fields.. I have learned to look across the field and find the tree line that is right in line with the tree line running in the other direction... I could walk over 500-600 yards and place restraints along that tree line... When you have to check many restraints you want to save some steps... So again they come along the tree line 500 yards away cross a field that is about 150 yards wide and cross right at the tree line that is in line with the one that is hundreds of yards away... I call it the Inverted T..   What I like is that how I get some coyotes by when they come through the tree line running in the other direction.. Now if I could find some chuck holes in that field I could kind of figure out where they would head to the chuck holes and catch them in the field..  Also our catches drop down on full moon nights or week and wow does it pick up the week of the new moon.  Also rain... wow we even get a few coon then too...

[Hern]

numerous mink dens... and just as you say, there in the snow you can see where a fox has stuck his snout in each and every one of those holes.....that stream bank/mink den situation is a very similar situation
I have seen tracks of Reds, Greys and Coyote follow shoreline of lake, swamp, pond, crick or river checking out Muskrat holes, Muskrat trails, Muskrat huts and Muskrat feed beds.
Everything on the menu for a Canine.
In the early '90's, an archery hunter ask me to catch Coyotes where he hunted. He claimed every morning inside the woods line/edge of field, Coyote would chase and catch Squirrels early morning until 9-10 am. The action was messing up his Deer hunting. I never would have known or thought of that and was thankful for the tip.
Long story-Short...Next weekend, I made 2 double sets about 400 yards apart and caught 8 Coyote on that property. (Of course I used Squirrel for bait)

[Hern]

Scott says-
Ernie,  it is my opinion that coyotes move on when hunting gets tough.  They push deer out of an area. Rabbits hole up quicker.  Kinda like when we over hunt a place.  I think the know this and move from area to area.  If I have coyotes behind the house they stay for 5 to 7 days.  Then they are gone.

Here's something I heard from Slim Pedersen and my experiences (my area) too...
Coyotes move into and live in corn fields and rise their families there around my neck of the woods. When the corn is harvested and many 100's of acres or miles of corn disappear in a day or two, Coyotes move away, into thick creek/river bottoms, slashing, thickets or other unharvest crops nearby.
Normal agricultural practices, normal hunting seasons for Small Game, Archery to rifle Deer season, trappers and predator callers coming and going regularly all force Coyotes to move and adapt.
When trappers and predator callers follow/scout Coyote signs in these smaller areas and find fresh sign, they set traps or make a few stands calling.
By that time, Coyotes moved away slowly from all the fresh human activity in this new area. Will they be back? Yes, No, Maybe. All depends on how badly were they spooked and how far they had to move to find another undisturbed area and how long before they are forced to move again.

[QUATTRO]

Lots of good info was shared on this thread and its almost a year old but yesterday I happened to read something that made me think of the original post I made that started this. A month or two ago, Hern had mentioned a book on coyotes to me that he thought was a worthy read. So, I ordered the book and I have been reading it on and off when time permits... got to the chapter on "Interspecific Interactions" and more specifically the part on the interactions between Coyotes and Red Fox..covered a lot but one finding stuck out to me based on how it related to what I originally posted..the passage was preceeded by a question posed by the author, Gerry Parker, which was answered by findings from a study done for a period of 5 yrs by scientists from the Dept. of Wildlife in Maine, The University of Maine and MCWRU. The question was, " Given the very real competition between coyotes and red foxes, what are the managment implications for red fox in the Northeast? Here is the answer stated in the book: " The presence of resident coyotes in Eastern Maine limits the available habitat and carrying capacity for red foxes; however, the ability of foxes to persist in boundary areas prevents complete displacement from regions occupied by coyotes.".... The next part of the answer is what really got me to thinking about how it related to my original question....the answer continues with: "Management for red foxes should be reevaluated in areas of eastern North America where coyotes have become established. Coyote induced declines in red fox densities may require reductions in allowable fox harvests in some areas. Effects of coyotes on fox numbers will vary according to the density of coyote territories and the availability of refugia from coyotes"...So, I understand this was a study done years ago and in another state, but thought it related pretty well. Obviously, as the last line of the answer says, it is all dependent on the coyote numbers and also the available "refuge" areas for the red fox to thrive. Still an interesting finding. Thanks for the suggestion Hern, great book by all means.

[Misterjake23]

What's the name of that book?   It confirms what we've all been saying.  Reds and coyotes have a difficult time getting along!!  If the coyote population takes hold like I anticipate it will,  I wonder what the likelihood would be to have a season bag limit in red fox???

[QUATTRO]

What's the name of that book?   It confirms what we've all been saying.  Reds and coyotes have a difficult time getting along!!  If the coyote population takes hold like I anticipate it will,  I wonder what the likelihood would be to have a season bag limit in red fox???

Yes. And that was the question I posed here a year ago...in places where there are a sustained number of coyotes, should we alter our hunting practices? I guess I could have been more clear in my asking. I meant not just us as hunters ourselves, but also should there be a concern in terms of a bag limit?? Reading what I did the other day brought that thought up again. The name of the book is "Eastern Coyote The Story of Its Success" by Gerry Parker..again credit goes to Hern for the suggestion. Awesome book if you are interested in the biological aspect of things. This all came up in conversation when I mentioned I had found some books from when I was in 5th grade that got me interested in red fox and coyotes.."The World of the Red Fox" by Leonard Lee Rue III published in 1969 and "The World of the Coyote" by Joe Van Wormer published in 1964....bought them at a book fair when I was 10 or 11 along with another book entitled "Trapping The Craft and Science of Catching Fur Bearing Animals" by Harold McCracken and Harry Van Cleve published in 1978..all cool books..Funny that in the coyote book from 1964 there is no mention of the "Eastern" coyote subspecies Canis Latrans Var...Closest mention was Canis Latrans Thamnos for the "Northeastern" Coyote...which its most easterly range was Michigan..

[Buckwheat]

What I have seen is were there are coyotes red fox numbers are down.
But I have killed red fox right out side of were coyotes are.
It seems they continue to live where coyotes are just in lesser numbers and on the edge. I have even called in red fox useing coyote pup distress wile calling coyotes. But the red fox used cover to come in and we're very cautious on coming in close. If I am in the coyote core ares there are no redfox. When you get to a spot you are sure held redfox and the stand location now sucks a coyote might have moved in. Use coyote vocals the next time there and stay in cover day or night. Coyotes hate to come out in the open here in Pa. There are very few uneducated coyotes in Pa. Oct and November you will have young pups to kill. But the adult coyotes are still not dumb. I have found redfox move into residential areas and stay out of their standard primary areas. Coyote prefer areas where people do not bother them at all. If you know a spot where people cannot go or a place people never go that will end up being a coyote core area. That area can be as small as one or two acre plot. When adult coyotes leave their core area they are very cautious. The red fox knows were they are safe to go. They never live in the core area of a coyote.

[Hern]

Quattro, the studies done in Maine still hold true today in Eastern states.

jake and others are experiencing Coyote expansion and seeing less Red Fox. This happened in my area 30 years ago, but really seen the effect 20 years ago when Coyote took a foothold.
It's nothing new. Maybe new to you and your area. But the Coyote continues to expand throughout eastern United States. Coyotes have a foothold in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi & Louisiana, but friends say it's just like Pa. Still expanding in those states.

From my observations in my area, Where Coyotes have a foothold, Reds may be near towns, malls & industrial parks. I have a few examples where I only catch/trap Red Fox and never caught a Coyote. Very few, very rare around here.
On the other hand...
I have experienced trapping a few Coyotes off a property, only to have Reds move in within a month or so.
I have trapped several Coyote/Red Fox doubles. By that, two traps set within 10' from one another. Coyote in one trap, Red Fox in another.
Four years ago I was calling and killed a Coyote/Red Fox triple. Coyote, then Red, then another Red.
I don't know what I'm getting at. Not trying to say Reds-Coyote co-exist, the don't. But sorta like Coyote-Wolf relationship. If there is a edge or crack a Red Fox can set up on fringe of Coyote range, Red will do that.