PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: foxtrot on December 28, 2009, 08:17:31 PM
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Looking to purchase a multi purpose fur friendly fox and coyote gun.My two choices so far is either a 17 fireball or a 22 hornet.I would like to hear the good and bad or if there would be a better choice.
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I'm in the same boat. Interested to see the replies from seasoned vets on this one.
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Go with the 17 Fireball.....the 22 Hornet is just a bit light for coyotes but it will kill them..However you want to be able to kill them from point blank out to 250 yards.. the fireball will do this...
Did you ever think of buying an T/C Encore. You can get a 22 Hornet barrel for it for $257.00. Buy it before 1 Jan and you can get it for $207.00. You can get the 17 Fireball barrel too but that will cost you a bit more...Maybe about $320.00 from Arthur Brown...You will have to wait 12 weeks for them to make it to your specs...
I have the Hornet and I have a 17 Rem CF...I would pick the 17 CF for the all purpose all predator kind gun...Chucks, fox, bobcat, coon, and coyotes...
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Which one has the least amount of report, 22hornet or the 17.Is the 204 caliber worth considering?
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22 hornet has the least report of the two. of the guys that i know who own the 204, they have put aside for coyote only....no very fur friendly for fox. i'm very happy with my hornet and with the hand loads i've developed for it.
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Foxtrot... I guess the 64,000 dollar question to you is,
Do you reload ? Or better yet...
Do you care about pelt damage on a fox ? If your answer is "NO" use your deer rifle or whatever you currently own ;D
There is not one single cal. that will do it all without pelt damage. Yes I personally have shot factory 50gr v-max's out of a 22-250 and aimed low to the eye's on a fox and hit them in the mouth with descent luck. Body Shots... Forget It... Big Holes... But again ask yourself if you kill 5-10 foxes a year do you really care ?
IMO when I see a guy ask a question like yours he can probably only afford 1 rifle for both predators which there is nothing wrong with that... But there is some trade off's with 1 rifle there will be pelt damage. So this is how I would look at it...
22-250/223/204 = Dead Coyote + Dead Fox (Pelt Damage on Fox)
22 Hornet/22 Mag/17 HMR = Dead or Wounded Coyote + Dead Fox (Minimal Pelt Damage on Fox)
I don't know about you but run offs SUPER SUCK !!! So what do you think the ethical choice would be...
I would buy a rifle geared towards coyotes and use it for foxes too and live with the pelt damage until down the road you might decide you need a rifle more dedicated for fox hunting and then you will have the best of both world's.
If you reload you can go with reduced loads and soft point bullets that work excellent on fox's... (Example= 22-250 or 223+ Blue Dot Powder + 45gr SP Hornet Bullets = Minimal Pelt Damage)
Coyotes are kinda like deer, they are pretty tough critters where fox's are built like a house cat... thin skinned and somewhat fragile...
Most store bought ammo for varmint cal. are centered around high frag bullets that will upset violently... (Pelt Damage)
Again, Reloading opens a whole new world of making one caliber more multi purpose like you want.
FYI...I have a 22-250 that I shoot Blue Dot loads though and they just shoot 5 or 6 inches low (I forget offhand) to my full house loads, so its easy to dial up 5-6 moa on the elevation and kill foxes and if I what to hunt coyotes just dial back down 5-6 moa and we are back to hunting coyotes. Never used it a lot because I use a Hornet for night hunting foxes and the Hornet is easier to carry too. Still very effective, quiet and very deadly load.
17 caliber stuff that I have seen is still hard on fox, except the 17 HMR which I've seen many bullets splash on the face/head when night hunting and that makes for run offs or the game of can you catch the wounded fox when they run after you walk up to them (Very Very Fun To Play) ;)...
Just think your choices through and buy the best gun you can afford and not the cheapest gun you can find in that caliber... Buy good stuff and get good results, you will be much more happy in the end and not selling guns,scope bases,scopes and being very frustrated.
Good Luck
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I like when Jay post How Too's...That when I listen...I am going to have to give that Blue Dot shotgun powder a try.....
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Blue Dot loads are kinda fun... Its like having 2 guns in one... 22-250 has a big bang but slip one of these reduced loads in and it goes pop like a hornet... Uncle Buck, I just looked and I used 14gr of Blue Dot with excellent accuracy.
"Caution" Please research these reduced loads for your cal. You need to be very very careful and not double charge or you will get hurt.
This powder is extremely fast and builds a lot of pressure for a small amount of powder used.
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Where did you guys get the Blue Dot loads ? I might try this in my 22-250 or 204
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I loaded some for my chemistry teacher. Try reduced recoil loading. In yahoo.
I have it written down for some calibers. But It Is at home. At a friends getting ready to rumble on some fur toonight.
Justin
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Been thinking bout gettin me a 22 hornet...what brand is everyone shooting in 22 hornet...a little research and I can see savage makes a single shot bolt action hornet in their model 40...my 223 is a model 25, same action, same barrel, its an awesome gun...now, I was also looking at the NEF 22 hornet in the handi rifle...thinking...short...compact...doesn't cost much...only heard good things about their accuracy...anyone have any thoughts?
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Browning for me... Had an H&R but did not like it, you really get what you pay for I guess.
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Hey Critterslayer all ya gotta do is ask and ya can take the Handi Rifle Hornet out and shoot it to see what ya think. Ive killed more foxes coons and hogs with that then my 17 CF. Ya just dont get quite the range. I know ive killed hogs at 250 plus with the Hornet but thats a chip shot for the 17 on a calm day. And in my opinion as far as guns and loads its the same with predators as with anything.....Its where ya hit em not what ya hit em with. Im not a very good seamstress and sewing foxes gets old after awhile but we owe it to the animal to make full use out of everything we harvest.
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I've been using the 17hmr for fox and have been very pleased with it for that purpose BUT on the occasion I call in a coyote I am definately under gunned.So I need something that will stop both but still leave me with something to work with in regards to the fox after the shot.Rarely do I shoot at anything beyond a 100 yards and I do not have a loader.I know this is a tough question and maybe there is no good answer but I appreciate the comments from the guys that use the small centerfires on a regular basis.
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I guess I should have asked one more question...Is this for night hunting (Head Shots)
If "YES" get a Hornet for both... Everything is dead in the head with a Hornet !!!!
Happy New Year!!!!
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I use a Browning A Bolt Micro Hunter in 22 Hornet and I absolutely agree with jay. This is a great fox gun.
I use the same gun in a 204 for coyote.
I also have a savage 22 hornet over a 12 gauge that is a great gun as well. I don't use it much but have been thinking of blowing the dust off of it and giving it a workout.
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Lookn4fur, I assume the fox you shot for the member hunt was with the hornet?I noticed very minimal damage.Have you or anyone else harvested coyote with the 22 hornet ?The price of the ammo is a little scarey
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No, never shot one with the hornet but Curt has. He can fill you in on the story.
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Remember those boxes of ammo for a Hornet are 50 cartridges not 20...
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That makes it a little less painful.
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Blue Dot loads are kinda fun... Its like having 2 guns in one... 22-250 has a big bang but slip one of these reduced loads in and it goes pop like a hornet... Uncle Buck, I just looked and I used 14gr of Blue Dot with excellent accuracy.
"Caution" Please research these reduced loads for your cal. You need to be very very careful and not double charge or you will get hurt.
This powder is extremely fast and builds a lot of pressure for a small amount of powder used.
Where do you find these blue dot loads?
This sounds like fun and a great way to reduce fur damage.
Do you work these loads up yourself?
or do you have a charge table for them??
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reloadingroom.com is where I started. Talked to this guy Rocky and started messing around with it after that. He had stuff on .223 rem and just built off of that. I just looked on his site and we were getting 2600fps with 14grs of blue dot and 45gr bullet in a 22-250. I might have to get them out again and do some night hunting with them. Pretty fun !!!!
FYI, if you look around you will see other cal. you can use it for too.
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Jay thanks for the info..Yep I will be careful..Wow that Bluedot in a shotgun shell kicks like a mule too.....
Just got a T/C 24 inch 22250 Encore barrel. Rate of twist is 1-12 of course unlike the Rem model 788 which is 1-14 twist..
I have a 22 Hornet Encore barrel...I remember talking to an old ice fisherman in the Poconos one year I was hunting coyotes.. He told me how there were plenty around.. However he said "Hornet for coyotes?" "You should be using something bigger!" However in the daytime when hunting coyotes...You should be able to call your shots..Unlike night hunting which is tought. So yep a Hornet in the head will get him...However why not have a gun that you can shoot it in the side or in the chest and it drops right there....
I have used the 22 WMR for fox? However why take the 22 WMR when you have a Hornet???????Why take the Hornet for coyotes if you have a 17 CF or a 22250? Ah people just want to learn how to track critters that why they go undergunned..Then in the snow you see the tracks going down a hole....Um don't put your hand down that hole!!!
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reloadingroom.com is where I started. Talked to this guy Rocky and started messing around with it after that. He had stuff on .223 rem and just built off of that. I just looked on his site and we were getting 2600fps with 14grs of blue dot and 45gr bullet in a 22-250. I might have to get them out again and do some night hunting with them. Pretty fun !!!!
FYI, if you look around you will see other cal. you can use it for too.
Thanks Jay
It is much appreciated
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Verminator,
You better have that furnace fix before you worry about that 204
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Ha, I know but somethings are more important than others. Besides it's the basement furnace, upstairs is fine.
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if any Hornet shooters who reload wanna try something new....here is my best fur friendly pet load to date for my Hornet. the flat nosed bullet seems to expend most of its energy on impact and i have yet to have a pass-through on a fox.
12.2gr of Lil' Gun
46gr Speer Flat Nose w/cannelure (.224)
CCI small rifle primer
Frontier Brass (Hornady)
load fired from a Savage 24F-12, bullet seated just to bottom of cannelure. Lee Collet Dies used.
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No, never shot one with the hornet but Curt has. He can fill you in on the story.
Foxtrot,
I shot 2 coyotes last year with my Ruger 22 Hornet. One was about 20 yds and the other about 50 yds. Both were shot in the vitals, one fell on the spot and the other ran a 20 yd circle and fell over.
My experience is it's a good coyote caliber at reasonable distance with a well placed shot. Definatle not my choice of calibers for strictly coyote but a good calibur in those fox / coyote areas where a coyote might show up if you're lucky. :)
hope this helps...
bootmud
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Another plus about the 22 Hornet is that it's REPORT...Is not as loud as other guns.. So if you hunt by a few housing developments that are so prevelent in my area of the state... It's not a bad gun.
However I like that....a gun to use when your hunting fox and a coyote comes to the call.. More and more that has been happening to me.....
Also yet another reason to stop using the 17 HMR for fox...too!!!!
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IMO I don't like loud rifles when hunting in farm country. You get way to much attention sometimes. I've been told many times its ok to come any time of the night don't call before you come and a month later when the farmer forgets and the dogs are barking and they hear a "LOUD" gunshot !!!! Here they come to check it out... Or pain in the butt neighbor's or drunks coming home from the bar. Stealth is the key in night hunting with pedators and people.
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Bootmud,
Thanks for sharing that story.I agree a 22 hornet is a little on the small side for coyote but it will get the job done and not be to hard on the fox.Lots of good information guys I think my mind is made up.I hate to say it but I think the 17 hmr is going to find a new home.